OBEDIENCE VERSUS GRACE? ****************EMAIL FROM A READER*********** -----Original Message----- From: To: tracy@jesus-is-lord.com Date: Sunday, February 03, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: obediance vs grace >I have just recently come across your site on how a person becomes saved, and I like what you had written. That's why I am writing to you because I am hoping you might be able to help me gain a better understanding of salvation. > >Most churches I listen to rarely mention obedience to God as part of what it takes to live a Christian life. Even when I go to their web site and use their search engine, I can't find anything on the subject of Christians obeying God's commandments once we've become saved. Yet in your article, you talked a lot about listening to God, living by God's precepts (teachings, instructions, commandments, etc.), following Jesus (i.e. following His kind of life), and that we should submit ourselves to God as obedient children submit themselves to their father. All of those things indicate that we must obey and do what God tells us. To me, that sounds like you are saying that we have to "do" things in order to fulfill our part for God saving us. > >For example, you stated that even though baptism doesn't save us, yet as saved Christians we still SHOULD be baptized because that's what God told us to do. Yet, I've heard quite a few other people say that baptism is a "work" . They say it's a nice gesture if we want to do it, but, it isn't something we have to do. I'm a little confused by all of this. If a person who has accepted Christ as their personal Savior decides NOT to be baptized, are they still a saved Christian? If they are, then it seems to me it doesn't matter if we're baptized or not. On the other hand, if we need to be baptized after we become saved, then I don't understand how works aren't important, unless being baptized isn't a "work." > >I've also heard the same argument about repentance. You quoted the Bible where it says that we should "do works meet for repentance" and you defined repentance as not mere lip service but forsaking our evil ways and doing things the way God wants us to. It seems to me you are saying that it is absolutely necessary for a person to repent before they can receive salvation. Yet I've heard others say that repentance is also a "work" because it is something we are required to DO to receive salvation. One person I read said: "Dangerous religious cults believe that salvation is a result of repentance and a willingness to turn from all known sin… They miss the logic of the apostle who reasoned: But to him who does no work but believe on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. (Rom 4:5) There is nothing we can do to receive salvation except believe the truth about our sin and the truth about who Christ is and what He has done for us." (from gospel.c! >om, associated with Christian Broadcasting Network and Christianity Today). > >Again I'm confused. Do we need to repent in order to be saved or not? To add to this confusion, you defined repentance as forsaking our evil ways and listening to God (i.e. living the way God tells us). Yet another minister defines repentance as "that change of attitude about one's self, one's sin and God. Sorrow for sin often accompanies it. Therefore, it is not what I do but what I believe that counts." (from gospel.com). Which is it? Is repentance something we must actively "do" to correct our sinful ways, or is it simply changing our attitude in reference to God by admitting we are sinners? > >Many preachers I've heard say that we are incapable of changing our sinful life and turning from our evil ways (i.e repenting). They say it is God – not us – who makes it possible for us to live a Christian life. Therefore they say that if repentance is necessary for salvation then our salvation is based on something we have to "do" rather than on God's grace. According to them, any church which teaches that we have to do anything – including repentance – to receive salvation is denying God's grace. Is that true? And if not, why not? > >Yet, if it's true that we are saved by grace alone, then why is it necessary to be obedient to God and live by His precepts? Isn't that "doing" something? In the prayer of salvation which you have on your web page, you asked us to pray to God saying "I want to *DO* righteousness through the blood of Jesus." But isn't that the same as saying that we are promising God that we will at least try to "do" something as a condition for God granting us salvation? If that is so, then what happens if a Christian isn't obedient to God after they've become saved? Hasn't that person then, in effect, just lied to God when they said that prayer? Since the Bible says that liars won' t go to heaven, it seems to me that we would have to keep our promise to "do" something (i.e, obeying God's will) in order to remain saved. > >What confuses me even more is that I've seen some people who have come forward and publicly accepted Christ as their personal Savior, and, for awhile, they sincerely seem to live a Christian life, but gradually they've drifted away from the church and slipped back into their old habits. When I knew them, they were no longer living their life as a Christian should, but were living like the rest of the world does. > >I've asked others if these people are still considered saved Christians. Most of the time I'm told that these back-sliders are indeed still saved, even though they are no longer repentant and obedient to God's ways, because salvation is not based on anything we do or don't do. However, it has also been explained to me that such back-sliders will not receive as great a reward once they get to heaven as will those who have lived the Christian life. > >In my way of thinking, even if we just barely get into heaven with no reward at all, that's a whole lot better than going to hell. So I don't understand the need to obey God's will if we're going to heaven any how. Are we suppose to obey God just so we can get a better reward in heven? That sounds like a rather selfish attitude. Yet, according to what I think you are saying, in order to maintain our salvation it's important for us to put forth the effort to keep God's commandments after we have become saved. You say that this will happen automatically once a person has accepted Christ as their Savior because they will then have the desire to follow God. If that's true, then it seems to me that back-sliders can't really be considered saved, because they no longer have the desire to listen to God, submit themselves to God, obey God, and turn from their evil ways even though they' ve admitted at one time in their life that they were sinners and asked God to save them. But if th! >at's true, then how does any one know for sure whether they're really saved or not? > >Can you help clarify this confusion for me? > >Thank you in advance > >Sincerely, **************MY ANSWER*************** From: To: Subject: Re: obediance vs grace Date: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 10:20 AM Dear Friend: It is not hard to understand that obedience automatically goes with saving faith. Instead of looking up websites, get in that word and SEARCH for the answer like the Bereans. Ask the King to take the cobwebs out of your head. Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus is become the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him. If I have faith that there is water in my faucet, when I'm thirsty I WILL GO AND TURN IT ON. Faith has an object. I believe in Jesus and I believe in the word, why would I not trust and do what He says? Why would you question obedience to the King of glory? Does not His word say obedience is better than sacrifice. TOO MANY are deceived of the devil into thinking "obedience is a work". Only THE DEVIL would inject that doctrine in the church and only THE DEVIL would keep your mind going on a rat wheel about it. Any doctrine that does not lead you closer to Christ is of THE DEVIL. Dispensational heresies have scrambled up the people's minds. The devil does not mind you reading the Bible as long as you read it WITH DISTORTION. If you love the Lord ask Him to unmask any deception. for Jesus' sake, tracy -- http://www.jesus-is-lord.com ...I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD. And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. Ezekiel 2:4, 6